Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

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Traffic Cone
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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by Traffic Cone » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:13 pm

eazyflow wrote: How about this line from the same album:

“My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge / And I’ll stab you in the head, whether you’re a fag or les / A homosex, hermaph, or a trans-a-ves / Pants or dress? Hate fags? The answer’s yes."

Does that satisfy your criteria?

And besides, couldn't it be argued that lyrics condoning thoughts of violence towards specific individuals is in some ways even more sinister then those targeted at a large generalised group?
I'd ay it's more a question of "what will this encourage in other people" rather than "is this more sinister on a personal level".

So in the case of Eminem above he's still just saying "I hate gays"> That's only the same as "we should kill all the gays" IF there is the implicit understanding that Eminem is a model to look up to. Is there not an element at least with Eminem where it's implicit that he's feeling this way because he's fucked up - not because he's a moral authority?

So someone saying "i hate X...because I'm fucked up" isn't a direct incitement in the same way that "kill all the X" is, because it doesn't have the implication "you should also hate X".

I'm not saying it's completely without grey areas, but I do think it's more than just music which expresses unpleasant ideas.

I think the logic behind it, in terms of the laws against this sort of thing: it's the point where the value of free speech is beaten by the right for minorities to avoid persecution. So it's not "does this express ideas which make me uncomfortable", it's more "does this encourage ideas and actions that could cause damage to others".

(I don't think Discogs are necessarily doing this for legal reasons, but I think the logic is the same.)
eazyflow wrote: Yeah, you're right - Discogs is a privately owned site and they can restrict what they like. I'm just questioning whether they should.
But that's the question I'm asking. Why should Discogs not use their own discretion to set where the line is? Why should it be totally free from restriction?

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by eazyflow » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:42 pm

Traffic Cone wrote:
eazyflow wrote: How about this line from the same album:

“My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge / And I’ll stab you in the head, whether you’re a fag or les / A homosex, hermaph, or a trans-a-ves / Pants or dress? Hate fags? The answer’s yes."

Does that satisfy your criteria?

And besides, couldn't it be argued that lyrics condoning thoughts of violence towards specific individuals is in some ways even more sinister then those targeted at a large generalised group?
I'd ay it's more a question of "what will this encourage in other people" rather than "is this more sinister on a personal level".

So in the case of Eminem above he's still just saying "I hate gays"> That's only the same as "we should kill all the gays" IF there is the implicit understanding that Eminem is a model to look up to. Is there not an element at least with Eminem where it's implicit that he's feeling this way because he's fucked up - not because he's a moral authority?

So someone saying "i hate X...because I'm fucked up" isn't a direct incitement in the same way that "kill all the X" is, because it doesn't have the implication "you should also hate X".

I'm not saying it's completely without grey areas, but I do think it's more than just music which expresses unpleasant ideas.

I think the logic behind it, in terms of the laws against this sort of thing: it's the point where the value of free speech is beaten by the right for minorities to avoid persecution. So it's not "does this express ideas which make me uncomfortable", it's more "does this encourage ideas and actions that could cause damage to others".

(I don't think Discogs are necessarily doing this for legal reasons, but I think the logic is the same.)
But that's your own personal distinction on why one is acceptable whilst the other isn't - do you think everyone else would follow the same line of reasoning to arrive at the same conclusion?

Personally I'm not convinced there's much distinction between Buju Banton's homophobic lyrics and Eminem's misogynistic lyrics when it comes to promoting violence.

I realise were taking things down to hair-splitting levels of pedantry here, and I'm playing Devil's advocate to a certain degree, but doesn't even the fact that we are having this debate just go to show what a fucking tangle this all is?
Traffic Cone wrote:
eazyflow wrote: Yeah, you're right - Discogs is a privately owned site and they can restrict what they like. I'm just questioning whether they should.
But that's the question I'm asking. Why should Discogs not use their own discretion to set where the line is? Why should it be totally free from restriction?
Because it worked absolutely fine before :biggrin:

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by Traffic Cone » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:00 pm

maybe another way to put it is: to find the incitement in Eminem's lyrics relies on a particular interpretation. whereas this record in particular, surely there's only one interpretation?

but anyway, really it doesn't matter how grey any of this is, because it's only Discogs's take on it that matters. it does sound like it's been applied fairly inconsistently (does seem there are some items blocked for unexplained reasons) but i don't think the policy itself is that terrible.

Basically, i don't think the community aspect of Discogs means that these sort of decisions should be up to anyone but the site itself.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by nebkins » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:00 am

And then the owners of Discogs deem that 1994 jungle is sacrilegious. The 1993 Darkcore, Then 1992 Hardcore. And it spirals from there with Belgian techno, Detroit techno, Chicago house all being blocked. The rivers run red and the seas boil. And we can't buy any decent tunes on Discogs. And then Discogs comes after us. They break into our homes and smash our hardcore records. There are book burnings of Energy Flash, Last Night A DJ Saved My Life and Goldie's autobiography. The people rally and show their support by wearing Reinforced and Nu Groove T-Shirts but the Discog's brown-shirts weed them out and force them to listen to EDM. Anyone with an Amen waveform tattoo is sent to a gulag in eastern Siberia. End of days.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by eazyflow » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:49 am

:biggrin:

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by RonWellsJS » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:39 am

nebkins wrote:And then the owners of Discogs deem that 1994 jungle is sacrilegious. The 1993 Darkcore, Then 1992 Hardcore. And it spirals from there with Belgian techno, Detroit techno, Chicago house all being blocked. The rivers run red and the seas boil. And we can't buy any decent tunes on Discogs. And then Discogs comes after us. They break into our homes and smash our hardcore records. There are book burnings of Energy Flash, Last Night A DJ Saved My Life and Goldie's autobiography. The people rally and show their support by wearing Reinforced and Nu Groove T-Shirts but the Discog's brown-shirts weed them out and force them to listen to EDM. Anyone with an Amen waveform tattoo is sent to a gulag in eastern Siberia. End of days.
I'll be fine with them banning Amen with out of tune and in the wrong key; bass, riffs and vocals.

;-)

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by Elusive9T2 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:34 am

3rnvk6.jpg
I'd be happy if they ban Eminem forever, he is very boring & shit

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by Traffic Cone » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:11 am

"first they came for the junglists, and i did not speak out..."

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by dj jedi » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:37 am

TC has basically said what I was trying to, but more eloquently! My point was this is hate speech, and inciting hate is illegal. Should the Eminem record be banned too? Yes probably, I've never heard it. But the fact it's not doesn't make this record OK.

Which football team you support is an opinion. What music you like is an opinion. Disagreeing with homosexuality is not something people are entitled to an opinion on IMO, and there are laws to protect such minorities.

Hopefully that explains better what I meant. I'm just amazed anybody would stick up for a record like this, it's disgraceful.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by ian saunders remix » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:45 am

Luna-C's going to be in trouble over this release then :D
http://www.discogs.com/artist/251508-Isis-9

I look forward to the Islamic State remix of "No Women Allowed" by Sperminator.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by vigilante » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:34 am

seem to remember a bit of controversy over chase and status 's duppy man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M8zpBsMoM0

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by eazyflow » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:04 am

dj jedi wrote: Disagreeing with homosexuality is not something people are entitled to an opinion on IMO
:lol:

Also, nobody here is disagreeing with homosexuality Jedi, as much as you want to twist it as such.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by dj jedi » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:30 pm

Not sure why you're laughing or accusing me of twisting words, you said it, read for yourself:
eazyflow wrote:It's amusing to see people cheering on Discogs here because it's something that they personally don't like or consider too obscure to be relevant... wonder if that would change when the self appointed arbiters of what is good taste move the line in the sand into realms of music that they do like...
"personally don't like"... "what is good taste"... comparing this record's content to musical preference... taste or personal opinion doesn't come in to a song about murdering gay people. You don't seem to be able to grasp that. Anyway I'll stop flogging this dead horse.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by eazyflow » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:57 pm

dj jedi wrote:Not sure why you're laughing or accusing me of twisting words, you said it, read for yourself:
eazyflow wrote:It's amusing to see people cheering on Discogs here because it's something that they personally don't like or consider too obscure to be relevant... wonder if that would change when the self appointed arbiters of what is good taste move the line in the sand into realms of music that they do like...
"personally don't like"... "what is good taste"... taste or personal opinion doesn't come in to a song about murdering gay people. You don't seem to be able to grasp that. Anyway I'll stop flogging this dead horse.
I’m laughing because that line demonstrated with glorious irony how for somebody who doesn’t like other people’s opinions, you don't mind having plenty of your own.

And I'm at a loss as to what it is in that original comment you quoted that led you to accuse me of being a homophobe (which you have alluded to twice in this thread now). An explanation would be quite nice please?

I thought it was pretty clear that all along I’ve been arguing about the inconsistencies with how such a policy can be implemented, due to there being a massive grey area in which different people with different opinions could deem different things as inciting hatred.

To give you a fine example, despite you agreeing with Traffic Cone for the most part, he has no problem with people selling Eminem records, whereas you say that you would ban it, and that’s despite openly admitting that you’ve not even listened to it!

Can you not see how that could be a problem?
Last edited by eazyflow on Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discogs preventing the sale of certain tunes...

Post by dj_gyr8 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:37 pm

Hi,

Just let people buy what they want - it is up to them... This is all about the music, certain words etc is no relevant.

PC gone mad - yet again...

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