do you agree with Cox here?

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dial1 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:19 pm

As I previously stated I don't think any genre is inherently intelligent, techno and jungle included, with the exceptions of classical music, avant/free jazz/fusion, avant-progressive rock and non-western microtonal musics.

For a genre to be inherently intelligent it has to define a kind of music theory or be mathematically and compositionally extremely advanced, something that cannot be played using conventional rote/band practice learning.

But, and this is a big but, just because 91-94 hardcore was not inherently intelligent, it did not mean that sonically it was not radical. Same goes for techno, ambient/idm, glitch etc.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by Traffic Cone » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:22 pm

dial1 wrote: Surely it makes sense to speak of collective E-experiences? So why not collective comedowns?
i think the point you are missing there is: the reason that there was a collective shift to the darkside in rave, was that it was the early days, so most people had (broadly speaking) started together. whereas, after a couple of years, you have a cycle of people who are new to the scene getting really into raving, and then when the drugs wear out, fading away...but as those people are fading away a new crop of happy ravers are coming in. so there you have the "darker" sides of rave coinciding with the happy ones. there isn't a collective mass audience who are ALL at the same point in their drug honeymoon cycle, so to speak.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dial1 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:41 pm

Traffic Cone wrote:
dial1 wrote: Surely it makes sense to speak of collective E-experiences? So why not collective comedowns?
i think the point you are missing there is: the reason that there was a collective shift to the darkside in rave, was that it was the early days, so most people had (broadly speaking) started together. whereas, after a couple of years, you have a cycle of people who are new to the scene getting really into raving, and then when the drugs wear out, fading away...but as those people are fading away a new crop of happy ravers are coming in. so there you have the "darker" sides of rave coinciding with the happy ones. there isn't a collective mass audience who are ALL at the same point in their drug honeymoon cycle, so to speak.
Sure thing. But it still feels. i dunno. I find it very interesting how I've got loads of mates into HHC and they all cite years (not necessarily sounds) that drove them away from the scene. How could the djs keep up with kind of pandering to the crowds?

Like, for me, techno died for a while when it was all 145 BPM schranz/tribal loops. I can't cite you a specific year. but from around 02-06.

But I've literally got mates who said HHC went shit in 95. or 96. or 98. or 05.

What I'm trying to get at is, were the djs/producers or the crowds dictating the progression of the music?

If it was the latter, then surely HHC is a gateway music and little else?

Isn't that... I don't want to use the word problematic, but very ephemeral? Why didn't the same happen with jungle is the question? I don't like the way that dnb evolved after 2000, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a gateway music because there are still scenes and subscenes. I just don't find them interesting for the most part on a personal level.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by Traffic Cone » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:07 am

i think you do see the same thing with all styles of music. even just from reading forums i can see that for pretty much every year there are both people who think it was when d&b was at it's best, and when it died for them. and i think there are also plenty of people for whom dance music is just one part of going out, so when they lose interest in that for whatever reason, then their music interests fade. i think that's true for a lot of people into oldskool hardcore.

with happy hardcore i also know plenty of people who have been into it for years, myself included. they maybe aren't out every weekend caning pills to it, and don't necessarily listen to it every day. also a lot (like me) don't like the newer stuff but still love the stuff they do like - as well as a scene of diehards that love the new stuff and continue to do so. for those of us for whom it has a genuine emotional spark it's far from ephemeral.

(in fact i personally have found it's a lot of the weirder / more credible music that has been more ephemeral for me! :-k )

the one thing that is a bit different about happy hardcore is that there are a few smart business people / old guard DJs who managed to monopolise the scene and make a fair bit of money out of gearing everything towards those more casual ravers. which is why there's maybe a lot more of the creative producers who have been pushed out of the music, and why an underground side to the scene has found it harder to develop.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dj jedi » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:45 am

Traffic Cone wrote:i think you do see the same thing with all styles of music. even just from reading forums i can see that for pretty much every year there are both people who think it was when d&b was at it's best, and when it died for them.
Yep a lot of people forget that music is a generational thing, as said many times it's completely subjective, there is no right or wrong answer. I have many friends who are 100% convinced that 1998-2002 D&B is the best music of all time. In my opinion it was dead and buried by then. But I don't think they're wrong and I'm right, I just accept that it's not my era.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dial1 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:13 pm

Traffic Cone wrote:i think you do see the same thing with all styles of music. even just from reading forums i can see that for pretty much every year there are both people who think it was when d&b was at it's best, and when it died for them. and i think there are also plenty of people for whom dance music is just one part of going out, so when they lose interest in that for whatever reason, then their music interests fade. i think that's true for a lot of people into oldskool hardcore.

with happy hardcore i also know plenty of people who have been into it for years, myself included. they maybe aren't out every weekend caning pills to it, and don't necessarily listen to it every day. also a lot (like me) don't like the newer stuff but still love the stuff they do like - as well as a scene of diehards that love the new stuff and continue to do so. for those of us for whom it has a genuine emotional spark it's far from ephemeral.

(in fact i personally have found it's a lot of the weirder / more credible music that has been more ephemeral for me! :-k )

the one thing that is a bit different about happy hardcore is that there are a few smart business people / old guard DJs who managed to monopolise the scene and make a fair bit of money out of gearing everything towards those more casual ravers. which is why there's maybe a lot more of the creative producers who have been pushed out of the music, and why an underground side to the scene has found it harder to develop.
Fair point. Wasn't JAL the label who tried to still push a happy jungle/breakbeat sound into 96/97?

And, if memory serves, it was the only HHC label to have a black person involved in running it.

It's interesting that you bring up the business minded ethos, there was probably quite a bit of that in oldskool dnb/hardcore and even trance, but with HHC being a relatively smaller scene in proportion, that aspect was able to get emphasised. It doesn't help that the (concept, per se) of underground vs mainstream is a business model.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dial1 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:16 pm

dj jedi wrote:
Traffic Cone wrote:i think you do see the same thing with all styles of music. even just from reading forums i can see that for pretty much every year there are both people who think it was when d&b was at it's best, and when it died for them.
Yep a lot of people forget that music is a generational thing, as said many times it's completely subjective, there is no right or wrong answer. I have many friends who are 100% convinced that 1998-2002 D&B is the best music of all time. In my opinion it was dead and buried by then. But I don't think they're wrong and I'm right, I just accept that it's not my era.
For me it's the technoid stuff of 96-2000. Simon Reynolds sums it up perfectly for me here.
The pervasive sense of slippin’ into a new Dark Age, of an insidious breakdown of the social contract, generates anxieties that are repressed but resurface in unlikely ways and places. Resistance doesn’t necessarily take the ‘logical’ form of collective activism (unions, left-wing politics); it can be so distorted and imaginatively impoverished by the conditions of capitalism itself that it expresses itself as, say, the proto-fascist, anti-corporate nostalgia of America’s right-wing militias, or as a sort of hyper-individualistic survivalism.
In jungle, the response is a ‘realism’ that accepts a socially constructed reality as ‘natural’. To ‘get real’ is to confront a state-of-nature where dog eats dog, where you’re either a winner or a loser, and where most will be losers. There’s a cold rage seething in jungle, but it’s expressed within the terms of an anti-capitalist yet non-socialist politics, and expressed defensively: as a determination that the underground will not be co-opted by the mainstream. ‘Underground’ can be understood sociologically as a metaphor for the underclass, or psychologically, as a metaphor for a fortress psyche: the survivalist self, primed and ready for combat.
Jungle’s soundworld constitutes a sort of abstract social realism; when I listen to techstep, the beats sound like collapsing (new) buildings and the bass feels like the social fabric shredding. Jungle’s treacherous rhythms offer its audience an education in anxiety (and anxiety, according to Freud, is an essential defence mechanism, without which you’d be vulnerable to trauma). ‘It is defeat that you must learn to prepare for,’ runs the martial-arts-movie sample in Source Direct’s ‘The Cult’, a track that pioneered the post-techstep style I call ‘neurofunk’ (clinical and obsessively nuanced production, foreboding ambient drones, blips ’n’ blurts of electronic noise, and chugging, curiously inhibited two-step beats that don’t even sound like breakbeats any more). Neurofunk is the fun-free culmination of jungle’s strategy of ‘cultural resistance’: the eroticization of anxiety. Immerse yourself in the phobic, and you make dread your element.
When the paranoid anxiety in the darker stuff and the intelligent stuff got stale is when I lost interest.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by Traffic Cone » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:30 pm

dial1 wrote: Fair point. Wasn't JAL the label who tried to still push a happy jungle/breakbeat sound into 96/97?

And, if memory serves, it was the only HHC label to have a black person involved in running it.
Well first of all, Inferno Records in Holland (and it's sublabel Chronic) was run by Bass D who is a black guy. And it released many of the biggest happy hardcore hits eve - Hold Me Now, Like A Dream, Every Time. :-p

and to answer the Q...sort of. JAL and Kniteforce were probably the ones slightly slower to switch to the heavier sound that started to dominate end of 95. and in 97 there were 3 or 4 JAL releases with breakbeaty B sides. there was also Jon Doe doing similar, Demo's Vital Elements, and a few by Slipmatt / DJ Ham. Oh also DNA was adding more breakbeat elements. Some of this was with a softer 4/4 kick, some more straight-up breakbeat only. This was more 97/98...by which point happy was already declining overall.

At the same time though, in the US and Canada, the first revival of jungle was starting with guys like Soundmurderer etc.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dj jedi » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:41 pm

I can think of a few other non-white happy hardcore DJs/producers/MCs too - DJ Kaos, MC Storm, Paul Elstak, MC Freestyle, MC Ruff.

As TC mentions certain individuals like Hixxy, Darren Styles, Dougal, all made a hell of a lot of money out of it, arguably more than most D&B producers or DJs did. They were successful because they weren't just DJs or small time producers, they had album deals all around the world, and before the digital age that's where the big money was.

In my opinion their mistake was greed, the scene became stale because they did not allow any up and coming DJs or producers into their elite group. Perhaps more so than any other scene, HHC has a massive divide between the few that made a lot of money and the vast majority that made nothing, even though most people probably assumed they were successful because they DJ'd or put out some records. Most of the big names from the 90s HHC scene now lead very modest lives, have gone on to other styles (eg Trixxy) or have nothing to do with music at all.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by Traffic Cone » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:53 pm

it is funny that there's basically a small group of people: Bradley Carter, Trixxy, Fade, DNA, Jon Doe, Devastate, Austin Reynolds, Mickey Skeedale, Al Storm, Scott Brown, Sunset Regime, UFO, Luna C, Ham - who between them made a significant majority of all (UK) 90s happy hardcore :biggrin:

i'm curious which of them are now making money out of their music (given that engineering is the one way you can actually do that nowadays).

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dj jedi » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:10 pm

Traffic Cone wrote:it is funny that there's basically a small group of people: Bradley Carter, Trixxy, Fade, DNA, Jon Doe, Devastate, Austin Reynolds, Mickey Skeedale, Al Storm, Scott Brown, Sunset Regime, UFO, Luna C, Ham - who between them made a significant majority of all (UK) 90s happy hardcore :biggrin:

i'm curious which of them are now making money out of their music (given that engineering is the one way you can actually do that nowadays).
Yep exactly, it would be easy to look at this list and think they must all be loaded because of their huge output, but for most that's not the case. They were simply the brains behind the music and got taken advantage of.

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by RonWellsJS » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:30 pm

dj jedi wrote:
Yep exactly, it would be easy to look at this list and think they must all be loaded because of their huge output, but for most that's not the case. They were simply the brains behind the music and got taken advantage of.
Rings a few bells.

;-)

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by Restless » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:53 pm

dj jedi wrote:I can think of a few other non-white happy hardcore DJs/producers/MCs too - DJ Kaos, MC Storm, Paul Elstak, MC Freestyle, MC Ruff.

As TC mentions certain individuals like Hixxy, Darren Styles, Dougal, all made a hell of a lot of money out of it, arguably more than most D&B producers or DJs did. They were successful because they weren't just DJs or small time producers, they had album deals all around the world, and before the digital age that's where the big money was.

In my opinion their mistake was greed, the scene became stale because they did not allow any up and coming DJs or producers into their elite group. Perhaps more so than any other scene, HHC has a massive divide between the few that made a lot of money and the vast majority that made nothing, even though most people probably assumed they were successful because they DJ'd or put out some records. Most of the big names from the 90s HHC scene now lead very modest lives, have gone on to other styles (eg Trixxy) or have nothing to do with music at all.
What is the Hardcore scene like right now? The last boom, IMO, was in 2005 (amazing times), but then it fizzled out.

Is it still healthy but underground? Or is it completely done?

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by Restless » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:54 pm

dj jedi wrote:
Traffic Cone wrote:i think you do see the same thing with all styles of music. even just from reading forums i can see that for pretty much every year there are both people who think it was when d&b was at it's best, and when it died for them.
Yep a lot of people forget that music is a generational thing, as said many times it's completely subjective, there is no right or wrong answer. I have many friends who are 100% convinced that 1998-2002 D&B is the best music of all time. In my opinion it was dead and buried by then. But I don't think they're wrong and I'm right, I just accept that it's not my era.
D&B only started around '97. So it's hard to say it was dead by '98!

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Re: do you agree with Cox here?

Post by dj jedi » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:58 pm

Restless wrote:What is the Hardcore scene like right now? The last boom, IMO, was in 2005 (amazing times), but then it fizzled out. Is it still healthy but underground? Or is it completely done?
I honestly have no idea mate. Although I haven't liked the music since about 99 I did keep up to date with it til about 2007, but now I have no idea.
Restless wrote:D&B only started around '97. So it's hard to say it was dead by '98!
Well there were certainly proper Drum & Bass tracks as far back as 95, stuff like Remember The Roller, Night Flight or Pulp Fiction. There is nothing jungle about any of those tracks, they're all straight up D&B. IMO it was great for a few years, but I got bored after 98 because it all sounded the same. IMO of course, I realise not everyone shares the same opinion!

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