Yikes...

Old Skool chat, tune discussions.
No tape packs or mix tape posts in the forum please!
Locked
User avatar
ian saunders
Old Skool Don Daddy
Old Skool Don Daddy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:40 am

Re: Yikes...

Post by ian saunders » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:47 pm

Elusive9T2 wrote:We all fileshare, I bet everyone reading this has watched a film downloaded off the internet
So no one is perfect here I bet, I certainly can't preach about it
I download all my TV every week, walking dead etc etc

Do you think DJ vapour & his mum downloaded episodes of ally mcbeal to get legal advice to shut down anything he doesn't like
Downloading from IAAO & then shutting is down is a scumbag move isn't it
That is indefensible
Can someone from that site show us how much he downloaded there?

Well said Ian
Yep, everyone fileshares...I'd just argue about not doing it on your doorstep.

I also don't think it's "greedy" that people who made music, want to get paid for it if it is legally available in a high quality format, regardless of when they made the track.

People who fileshare tunes, will always fileshare tunes and are not going to buy £2.99 wavs.
People who are happy with low quality YT rips are not going to buy £2.99 wavs.

People who own the vinyl and have digitized it are not going to buy £2.99 wavs.

If you wanna ask YT channels to put ads on, fine, ask them.

tomahawk
Regular
Regular
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:11 am

Re: Yikes...

Post by tomahawk » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:09 pm

I just want to say some things in defence of IAAO, whether they are met with disagreement or otherwise.

I was a member there for almost 5 years, I joined in late 2009 at the recommendation of a person I had brief contact with on YT. Before that I wasn't even aware of "file sharing" or mp3 downloading being the technophobe I am. Yes, like many others - I downloaded (illegally I might add) many tunes, probably a lot that were available to buy digitally, I'm not 100% sure on what is or was or can be available! all those factors etc...

So if I'm guilty of some heinous crime, then so be it. It's a fair cop Guv, and all that...

But the site was more than just downloading freebies etc. The site (like many others), had other things you could download such as sets, peoples own mixes, radio spots, blah blah. No one ever seems to get their knickers in a knot about those, it's always the singles that get into hot water. Anyway....also this. The site (just like this) had other aspects to it too, completely removed from open filesharing and other such naughty endeavours. I used to help with compiling track listing, IDS, feedback on people's new tunes. It was functioning like this site only it had the filesharing side too (it's dark side!).

I think the problem here, and where I take offense is suggesting we're "moaning" because we lost our site so therefore we can't download any more tunes (openly, in public view). It is completely inaccurate, the site means so much more to its longstanding members than that; it's a bit unfair to suggest that's what's affected us, the speed and manner in which the axe fell, giving Mark who owns the site no real chance to comply with any legalities or obligations is really the issue, and you ask any member who takes it serious there, they will tell you nothing otherwise.

Whether you condemn or condone that practise of filesharing, the truth is, the whole manner could have (and should have) been dealt with a bit more courtesy and tact and in a more diplomatic way.

As "Elusive" stated, everyone probably using the Internet has illegally downloaded SOMETHING at one point or another, whether it is music related or not. It's funny when people say things like "MP3 filesharing is still illegal". I guess no one ever took drugs, smoked under age, had sex underage, sped over the speed limit etc....

We're all perfect angels :-)

I doubt any single member of IAAO would disagree that all concerning artists have the right to royalties or payments of their music, no one has any issue with that; set out to step on anyone's toes, upset established artists or whatever. As is common practise, we just moved with the times where filesharing (whether right or wrong) was a part of this age, the age, the "digital era" or whatever. I don't think anyone cross examined the principalities of it too greatly, or analysed it in too great a concept, we just did it as others have and still do....perhaps in our eyes it kept the music 'alive' or vested interests of those like so many of us still passionate. Whether that justifies it or not, I don't think too many of us saw it as a means of being able to stick two fingers up at the artists and so forth. It's not like the London riots where we looted for the sake of it!

I'd also like to point out that I live in Australia, I emigrated in 2007 from the UK, I can't always afford the vinyls with airmail and conversion rates, I would love nothin more than to own everything on vinyl, you can't beat it, but for me personally it's just not a viable option. Again whether that's a justifiable reason for downloading tonnes of music, as you do, I don't know, all I know is from a recreational point of view it has kept me happy, I make no 'profit' or use the music for any form of commercial gain. And I personally would never advocate for MP3 mixing in clubs, venues or otherwise, vinyl would always surpass it without unequivocal doubt.

I just feel the site has come under a bit of unnecessary scrutiny in light of what has happened and I think it's a shame this happened, and that we lost our website because of one man's personal and warped crusade, when some form of compromise could easily have been reached.

I have no beef with anyone here, don't wish to piss on anyone's shoes and agree with many statements, particularly with Ian Saunders about getting a digital copy where it's available. Being fair to everyone, yeah? Including us :p

User avatar
renegadegenius
Nicolas Parsons
Nicolas Parsons
Posts: 20208
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:53 am
Location: Bat Beat Vol 2 - It's Still Here!!!! (as are a few copies of Vol 1)

Re: Yikes...

Post by renegadegenius » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:26 pm

My view of file sharing -

If something is available legally to buy (To give labels / artists money), then it shouldn't be up for people to download for free.

If something is 15-20 years old, only came out on vinyl / cd compilations & is now only on the 2nd hand market - possibly selling for lots of money & not actually giving any money to the original artists / labels, then it's fair game (imo).

There are of course the legalities of it, which when looked at properly, yes, they probably shouldn't be up there for all to grab.

But it's more like getting recordings out there for people to enjoy so that these tunes don't vanish.
If some obscure dubplate wears out & nobody gave the tune out to anyone & no dats are left, then that tune is lost forever.

Again, legally right - probably not, but I'd rather the music I grew up with and loved survives for others to listen to than to vanish forever once the physical products are gone.

User avatar
ian saunders
Old Skool Don Daddy
Old Skool Don Daddy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:40 am

Re: Yikes...

Post by ian saunders » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:31 pm

It wasn't an attack per se on the people or the site - it was just that something like this was always going to come up when a site (no matter about any of the other stuff) has the filesharing aspect clearly there. If it wasn't the bellend Vapour it'd be someone else, DJ Lime or whoever.

I fileshare, everyone does. I bet Cool Hand Flex and the other artists on HJ fileshare.

I'm the same, I lived abroad and can't afford to buy vinyl (I also don't have the space and I don't DJ) so filesharing is the best way for me to acquire music I love. Most of the stuff available for legal download I have anyway, so it's no big deal.

The best thing now, would be for IAAOS to come back online from the back-up, but without the filesharing. That way the community there and the information can be retained and people can go on other sites if they want to DL stuff.

My posts on FB were just because it seemed like some people were ONLY talking about filesharing, how many files they DLed etc etc. I think it should just be kept on the downlow, as if any artists read it, it kinda skews their thinking that everybody is only interested in filesharing....now we might all well be, but there's no reason to tell people that.

If there had just been posts about the shutting down of the forum as a whole, it would be better. No-one is going to stop sharing any time soon.

Apologies if it seemed like i was having a pop at IAAOS, I wasn't, just at what seemed like a few people (not you!) banging on about the best Russian sites etc etc

User avatar
ian saunders
Old Skool Don Daddy
Old Skool Don Daddy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:40 am

Re: Yikes...

Post by ian saunders » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:39 pm

renegadegenius wrote:My view of file sharing -

If something is available legally to buy (To give labels / artists money), then it shouldn't be up for people to download for free.

If something is 15-20 years old, only came out on vinyl / cd compilations & is now only on the 2nd hand market - possibly selling for lots of money & not actually giving any money to the original artists / labels, then it's fair game (imo).

There are of course the legalities of it, which when looked at properly, yes, they probably shouldn't be up there for all to grab.

But it's more like getting recordings out there for people to enjoy so that these tunes don't vanish.
If some obscure dubplate wears out & nobody gave the tune out to anyone & no dats are left, then that tune is lost forever.

Again, legally right - probably not, but I'd rather the music I grew up with and loved survives for others to listen to than to vanish forever once the physical products are gone.
I totally agree. The problem being is if the artist suddenly decides to come back to the scene, make the tunes available legally and crackdown on filesharing. The artist should (IMHO) contact any sites and ask them to take down his material, but more often than not they're just going to close EVERYTHING down, which takes everything with it.

Better to keep it all away from prying eyes.

User avatar
renegadegenius
Nicolas Parsons
Nicolas Parsons
Posts: 20208
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:53 am
Location: Bat Beat Vol 2 - It's Still Here!!!! (as are a few copies of Vol 1)

Re: Yikes...

Post by renegadegenius » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:45 pm

ian saunders wrote: I totally agree. The problem being is if the artist suddenly decides to come back to the scene, make the tunes available legally and crackdown on filesharing. The artist should (IMHO) contact any sites and ask them to take down his material, but more often than not they're just going to close EVERYTHING down, which takes everything with it.

Better to keep it all away from prying eyes.
I did actually put a thread up on IAAO saying not to share any tunes that came out on the site as it would be unfair.
At that time, we didn't know what was going to appear & obviously as the site is more a hobby than a job, it's not like there was anytime for people to go through the site with a fine tooth comb to remove any offending tracks before this happened.

At the end of the day, people can now see what he's like/what he's done in the past & make up their own minds.

tomahawk
Regular
Regular
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:11 am

Re: Yikes...

Post by tomahawk » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:57 pm

Yeah no worries Ian, as I said before no personal beef or issues with anyone here, I just felt compelled to give IAAOS's perspective, or certainly mine.

What happens with the site now is anyone's guess, Mark had to contend with hacking earlier last year and this blow might well be the death-knell, which is a great shame, but it's what's happened so we will have to deal with it.

Could be worse, could be in the Ukraine!!

I just feel aggrieved that our website was the first one mutilated! I'm not sure what or who else has been affected (as yet). Perhaps this guy was Henry 8th in a former life and thought the site was a reincarnated Anne Boleyn?! "Off wiv er 'ead"

I dunno, it's just madness. Hope he 'vapourises' in the middle of the night for what he's caused....

User avatar
Thrash
Oldskool Raver
Oldskool Raver
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:08 pm

Re: Yikes...

Post by Thrash » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:08 pm

I don't think we should get too bogged down in the whole file sharing debate.... All he had to do was ask for the tunes for sale on his site to be removed from the forum to maximise sales for the artists & it would have been fair enough. The people who run IAAO are all perfectly reasonable people who actually support current artists far more than the whole file sharing aspect would suggest. We'd even have been plugging his site in a similar way to the owners of the YouTube channels would....

To get a whole website shutdown because he's selling a very small amount of tunes from a few selected artists is the actions of a complete cnut....

I did read on their Facebook page they have a certain time frame of exclusivity on the tracks.... That would be a good reason to shut down all other potential avenues of obtaining the tunes in the short term to make as much cash as possible.

User avatar
RonWellsJS
Oldskool Raver
Oldskool Raver
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:09 am
Contact:

Re: Yikes...

Post by RonWellsJS » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:21 pm

I don't see any problem with low res (max 128k) MP3s on YT, in fact it's obvious that it's helped keep this music alive.

I was quite flattered that people had gone to the trouble to share my music on YT and I had long since resigned myself to 'death by MP3' in any case.

What I would have a problem with is high quality files that negate the need for the end-user to pay for a better copy elsewhere, if they want to own the tune.

This is the reason I decided to upload about a quarter of my back catalogue on SoundCloud at 128 kps.

This way if I ever get round to doing something I would expect a market to still exist. (I would probably make new versions anyway to be sure of a market, but in a matter of days these new rare mixes would be available for people to download for free, no doubt).

Having on tap high quality rips for free certainly prevents people like from me committing time and effort to remixing and releasing new music.

Without sounding like a broken record (pun intended), there is smarter way to go about this... it's what the rest of the legitimate internet businesses have been doing for years.

;-)

audiohazard
Regular
Regular
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Yikes...

Post by audiohazard » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:38 pm

audiohazard wrote:
ian saunders wrote:Problem is, it seems to have got to a point now where people are moaning about IAAO being taken down because they won't be able to fileshare on there any more.

Taking down YT channels is indefensible, taking down filesharing sites is not. Sites like IAAO were always going to be at risk of this sort of shit, it's a ticking timebomb, especially as there are plenty of other places you could fileshare stuff.
I was trying to reply to this earlier while I was out working but it appears that I can't post anything from my mobile phone..

I go on the iaato forum most days to chat a fair amount of nonsense with all the regular folk on there, it's not just about filesharing (as tomahawk has now pointed out) and if That vapour chap has been on there downloading tracks himself and has now had the site shut down that stinks of double standards and is absolutely disgusting. As there was no real means of getting a lot of these tracks digitally there were always going to be sites that crop up to provide this service for free, and when it seems that the labels or artists weren't really interested in doing it themselves I can't see how there was a problem. If vapour had gone to the owner of Iaato and spoken to him something would have no doubt been sorted, just like how he should have gone about speaking to the yt channel owners. the people who upload to that site (myself included) aren't stupid, and we all have a love for the music and scene, so if there is an opportunity for labels and artists to earn from it, we aren't about to stand in the way and give all the stuff away for free. To give you an idea, I don't recall seeing the new manix album uploaded on there as it could be purchased directly from the artist.

I was looking forward to this hj web site but between the you tube debarcle and shutting down iaato he can fuck right off..

User avatar
dj_gyr8
Old Skool Don Daddy
Old Skool Don Daddy
Posts: 3701
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:45 pm
Location: southcoast

Re: Yikes...

Post by dj_gyr8 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:57 pm

Hi,

Exactly, why kill off your free-advertising - doesn't make sense. Also, why kill off your customers.

Is there more to this than meets the eye, as surely anyone trying to make money would not be purposefully destroying their adverting and potential customers.

User avatar
dj jedi
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10142
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2001 12:00 am
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Yikes...

Post by dj jedi » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:07 pm

I've never had any contact with him personally, but from what has been posted by others he seems to get a boner over falling out with people, so is probably loving all of this attention :)

User avatar
Thrash
Oldskool Raver
Oldskool Raver
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:08 pm

Re: Yikes...

Post by Thrash » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:12 pm

audiohazard wrote: As there was no real means of getting a lot of these tracks digitally there were always going to be sites that crop up to provide this service for free, and when it seems that the labels or artists weren't really interested in doing it themselves I can't see how there was a problem. If vapour had gone to the owner of Iaato and spoken to him something would have no doubt been sorted, just like how he should have gone about speaking to the yt channel owners. the people who upload to that site (myself included) aren't stupid, and we all have a love for the music and scene, so if there is an opportunity for labels and artists to earn from it, we aren't about to stand in the way and give all the stuff away for free. To give you an idea, I don't recall seeing the new manix album uploaded on there as it could be purchased directly from the artist.

I was looking forward to this hj web site but between the you tube debarcle and shutting down iaato he can fcuk right off..
^^^^^^
Exactly that.

User avatar
dreamweave
Old Skool Master
Old Skool Master
Posts: 1363
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:26 pm
Location: Bournemouth
Contact:

Re: Yikes...

Post by dreamweave » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:12 pm

I think its all little bit too little too late, if there had been a website like this to download oldskool from and not have to file share it then that would have been the best idea. Instead it was never done. I do love my vinyl but these days if I had the option to buy a 20 year old vinyl or a Wav download the I would choose the Wav every time, better quality and cheaper. I use digital vinyl to mix on and haven't got my records out for a while as the majority of my collection now is on a hard drive. Yes the artists should get credited for their music so I don't see why an 'Oldskool iTunes' as such, was never put into practice years ago, or was it the fact that oldskool lovers should buy the hugely priced vinyl and put money into sellers pockets?

dodders
New User
New User
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:10 pm

Re: Yikes...

Post by dodders » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:26 pm

A'noon all

Another IAAO refugee here needing a forum fix. Without going over what's been said too much, as Hawk, Mike, RG etc have already said it wouldn't have taken too much effort on this guys part to have said tunes removed and to sail off into the sunset with what he wanted - same goes for the YT channels.

I do have a question however. Without knowing who's who on here, i'm assuming there's a few bitd producers floating around. What i'm wondering is if this guy came to you promising you riches for tunes you made near 2 decades ago, how would you feel to see him then trying to stomp all over his core customer base?

The other thing that puzzles me a touch is that if said guy (who by all accounts hasn't exactly got a great track record) comes to you saying there's riches in them thar hills, would you not consider going to a more established website with your back catalogue, as opposed to jumping on board with a bloke who's shady history is no more than a Google click away?

That said....nice to be here

Locked