First "Jungle" tune debate

[aize]

would love to hear some new jungle that wasn't so ragga heavy...i do still love that but jungle that uses other sounds is great, and there isn't enough!

Definitely, the whole ragga thing has been well and truly done. Still plenty of good ragga jungle tunes out there but a little variety is needed. As for my point about the complicated drum loops, i'm probably not explaining it well enough. It's not so much that they're complicated, but that there's a variety of different loops in a tune, breaking it up. If the drums don't really change, throughout the tune, i'd class it as drum and bass.
Perfect example of jungle imo,

The drums are almost constantly changing, it's hard to find 2 bars with the same pattern. Obviously it's a sliding scale so the problem becomes, at what point to you decide if a tune is drum and bass an when it becomes jungle.

Btw, completely agree with your point about drum and bass being heavily quantized and jungle being more based on breakbeats and so freer. Nail on head.

[Traffic Cone]

i know what you're getting at...there is d&b that does have constantly changing beats too though, like Enduser:



though some of his stuff does verge on jungle, i'd say stuff like that one is d&B...

whereas there's some jungle that's relatively straightforward amen variations but is still jungle.

[MaskHysteria]

...Jungle and DnB are in fact no different, they are one in the same...

I would not say that at all.

Consider - Can anybody agree on the difference between DnB and Jungle? No, they can't clearly define the two and completely agree with each other at the same time. Everybody has their own take on it. Plus, the name Drum and Bass was adopted partly on purpose because 'Jungle' had become a dirty word.

Examples...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ydQ-qPD324

Is that Jungle or DnB? It sounds very techy, so some would call it DnB, but then it's got a ragga vocal so some would say it's Jungle. Another side to it is that it's influenced by Dubstep, a genre influenced by Jungle / DnB in the first place, so some would just call it 'Drumstep'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4Z4epkUqU

Is that DnB or Jungle? All the sounds are 'DnB', but actually the bass is the same type as that in Renegade Terrorist - massive jungle tune, just with the filter being manipulated and the drums are clearly breaks chopped up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ClhDKelos

Jungle or DnB? It's got all the ragga vocals and sub bass that scream jungle at you, but then it's got those 2 step programmed beats which is one of the things you seem to be saying would make it DnB.

I don't think that Jungle / DnB ever really 'lost their hardcore' either, especially when you consider the reece bass is a techno sound and is one of the most used jungle / dnb basses out there.

I'd say: -
1) Doesn't sound like Jungle or D&B, too slow a tempo. I like it though!
2) A bit more debatable, but D&B, the beats sound more manufactured from single hits.
3) Jungle. Has the ragga vocals and samples. The percussion sounds more chopped breaks based.

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[MaskHysteria]

For me there's clearly a difference between jungle and drum and bass. Drum and bass is stripped down jungle with much more simplistic drum loops (read boring). Jungle has a much more broken feel to it, with clearly different sections to the tune. That said though, i'm sure plenty of people can find examples where this isn't the case. The most important part for me though, is the drums:
Several different loops, fills, snare rolls, gunshots etc. = Jungle
The same simple loop throughout = Drum and bass

+1 Nail.head.On. The drums are the most differentiating thing between the two for me.

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[Thrash]

Regardless of the technical arguments, it's Demon's Theme for me...

I've always classed We Are IE as a hardcore tune.

[aize]

3) Jungle. Has the ragga vocals and samples. The percussion sounds more chopped breaks based.

No no and NOOO! Sorry, bit of a sore spot with me this one. I'm forever getting hacked off by people in record shops trying to tell me this kind of stuff is jungle. The beat doesn't change, it's predictable, quantized to fcuk (thanks TC for reminding me of that term) and frankly pretty dull. Rest of the tune's ok, just the beat.... Therefore, it ain't Jungle, its DRUM AND BASSS!

Incidentally, if I ever manage to finish a tune i'm happy with (highly doubtful), it's gonna be called 'Just cos you sampled some ragga, don't make it fuckin jungle!'

[MaskHysteria]

3) Jungle. Has the ragga vocals and samples. The percussion sounds more chopped breaks based.

No no and NOOO! Sorry, bit of a sore spot with me this one. I'm forever getting hacked off by people in record shops trying to tell me this kind of stuff is jungle. The beat doesn't change, it's predictable, quantized to fcuk (thanks TC for reminding me of that term) and frankly pretty dull. Rest of the tune's ok, just the beat.... Therefore, it ain't Jungle, its DRUM AND BASSS!

Incidentally, if I ever manage to finish a tune i'm happy with (highly doubtful), it's gonna be called 'Just cos you sampled some ragga, don't make it fuckin jungle!'

I think it is more of a cross over tune, not quite Jungle, not quite D&B, tiny bit to the Jungle side, but I'm sheet at genres though, so don't mind me

I personally like a bit oh me ragga ting though respec! Loverly jubbly...oh wait, thats turning into The Darling Buds of May - proper kudos to anyone that can integrate that into a Jungle tune!

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[MaskHysteria]

3) Jungle. Has the ragga vocals and samples. The percussion sounds more chopped breaks based.

No no and NOOO! Sorry, bit of a sore spot with me this one. I'm forever getting hacked off by people in record shops trying to tell me this kind of stuff is jungle. The beat doesn't change, it's predictable, quantized to fcuk (thanks TC for reminding me of that term) and frankly pretty dull. Rest of the tune's ok, just the beat.... Therefore, it ain't Jungle, its DRUM AND BASSS!

Incidentally, if I ever manage to finish a tune i'm happy with (highly doubtful), it's gonna be called 'Just cos you sampled some ragga, don't make it fuckin jungle!'

I think it is more of a cross over tune, not quite Jungle, not quite D&B, tiny bit to the Jungle side, but I'm sheet at genres though, so don't mind me

I personally like a bit oh me ragga ting though respec! Loverly jubbly...oh wait, thats turning into The Darling Buds of May - proper kudos to anyone that can integrate that into a Jungle tune!

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[Beagle]

I always thought ragga samples were a prerequisite for 'jungle'. Which is why I was never a huge fan.

[Paul Zykotik]

What I'm finding strange in this thread is that the criticisms levelled at Drum & Bass - bland, doesn't do anything, same old beats - is exactly how I feel about the majority of jungle Whereas I really enjoy DnB.

[Traffic Cone]

that's definitely true, especially of a lot of modern jungle. same as with hardcore breaks vs oldskool, it seems a lot more like recreating a classic sound, without any of the pushing new ideas.

especially as it seems the main alternative is the likes of scientific wax, which to me mostly seems to be just endless amen chops over really dull "atmospheric" single note pads.

but saying that, "safe" jungle still has more variety in it than equivalent d&b, for me. amens may be rinsed but at least they're chopped into different shapes, it's still less tedious than endless rigid 2-steps, imo.

[Backchat]

I think the question should be - who really cares

I think I last heard the term ' last night was kicking' right around the same time D&B and Jungle fully flooded the main events....

Not exactly crowd moving stuff is it

[ian saunders]

Regarding the difference between Jungle and D'N'B.

This is Jungle:


This is D'n'B:

[mulder]

See, none of you can agree on exactly what makes them different. You all have your own ideas.

Let's just say they are 2 styles of the same genre which happens to be called either one of the two names depending on preference and opinion as a compromise

[mulder]

1) Doesn't sound like Jungle or D&B, too slow a tempo. I like it though!

It's actually above 174bpm, standard modern DnB rate, it's just half speed beats. Why can't anybody see this as Jungle / DnB tho? It is just another style in the genre, same as liquid or jump up or techstep...