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First "Jungle" tune debate

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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby mulder » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:18 pm

MikeW wrote:If Radio Babylon is jungle, so is this (1989):



That good enough for you Mr Saunders ;)



Radio Babylon - Jungle

Roll It Up - Just a breaks / stripped back hip house tune without a rap on it. Hasn't got any bass bar that single 808 hit now and then.
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby MaskHysteria » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:29 pm

All these years burying my feelings that We Are I.E. isn't Jungle and I find out I'm not the only one!

Beagle wrote:
ian saunders wrote:I think that Jungle (as in music) only came about when the word "Jungle" was used to describe it. It's when the term came in is what's important, not the actual music. Everything before the term "jungle" can be classed as an influence, rather than being that music.

So what was the first record that was described as being "jungle"?

If people in 1990-91 heard We R IE and said "that's a jungle tune" then it's jungle. Depends what they called it at the time.



correct answer. End of thread.


This gets a +1 from me B-)


mulder wrote:...Jungle and DnB are in fact no different, they are one in the same...


I would not say that at all. I don't like most D&B. Too me; D&B is more manufactured percussion, more repetitive and has a limitation in the frequeny range.

I think Jungle sounds more oldskool sample breaks based that are more eclectic with nice snappy snares and is heard best with some nice Rasta vocals.

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Re: First

Postby mulder » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:19 pm

MaskHysteria wrote:
mulder wrote:...Jungle and DnB are in fact no different, they are one in the same...


I would not say that at all.


Consider - Can anybody agree on the difference between DnB and Jungle? No, they can't clearly define the two and completely agree with each other at the same time. Everybody has their own take on it. Plus, the name Drum and Bass was adopted partly on purpose because 'Jungle' had become a dirty word.

Examples...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ydQ-qPD324

Is that Jungle or DnB? It sounds very techy, so some would call it DnB, but then it's got a ragga vocal so some would say it's Jungle. Another side to it is that it's influenced by Dubstep, a genre influenced by Jungle / DnB in the first place, so some would just call it 'Drumstep'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4Z4epkUqU

Is that DnB or Jungle? All the sounds are 'DnB', but actually the bass is the same type as that in Renegade Terrorist - massive jungle tune, just with the filter being manipulated and the drums are clearly breaks chopped up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ClhDKelos

Jungle or DnB? It's got all the ragga vocals and sub bass that scream jungle at you, but then it's got those 2 step programmed beats which is one of the things you seem to be saying would make it DnB.

I don't think that Jungle / DnB ever really 'lost their hardcore' either, especially when you consider the reece bass is a techno sound and is one of the most used jungle / dnb basses out there.
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby deebom » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 pm

I do know that if you refer to 'Drum & Bass' as Jungle, a lot of D&B heads get all irate and exclaim "IT'S NOT JUNGLE. IT'S DRUM & BASS!"
:-)
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby Double Drop » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:03 pm

deebom wrote:I do know that if you refer to 'Drum & Bass' as Jungle, a lot of D&B heads get all irate and exclaim "IT'S NOT JUNGLE. IT'S DRUM & BASS!"
:-)


All the more reason to say it.
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby aize » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:22 am

For me there's clearly a difference between jungle and drum and bass. Drum and bass is stripped down jungle with much more simplistic drum loops (read boring). Jungle has a much more broken feel to it, with clearly different sections to the tune. That said though, i'm sure plenty of people can find examples where this isn't the case. The most important part for me though, is the drums:
Several different loops, fills, snare rolls, gunshots etc. = Jungle
The same simple loop throughout = Drum and bass
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Re: First

Postby aize » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:30 am

mulder wrote:
MaskHysteria wrote:
mulder wrote:...Jungle and DnB are in fact no different, they are one in the same...


I would not say that at all.


Consider - Can anybody agree on the difference between DnB and Jungle? No, they can't clearly define the two and completely agree with each other at the same time. Everybody has their own take on it. Plus, the name Drum and Bass was adopted partly on purpose because 'Jungle' had become a dirty word.

Examples...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ydQ-qPD324

Is that Jungle or DnB? It sounds very techy, so some would call it DnB, but then it's got a ragga vocal so some would say it's Jungle. Another side to it is that it's influenced by Dubstep, a genre influenced by Jungle / DnB in the first place, so some would just call it 'Drumstep'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4Z4epkUqU

Is that DnB or Jungle? All the sounds are 'DnB', but actually the bass is the same type as that in Renegade Terrorist - massive jungle tune, just with the filter being manipulated and the drums are clearly breaks chopped up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ClhDKelos

Jungle or DnB? It's got all the ragga vocals and sub bass that scream jungle at you, but then it's got those 2 step programmed beats which is one of the things you seem to be saying would make it DnB.

I don't think that Jungle / DnB ever really 'lost their hardcore' either, especially when you consider the reece bass is a techno sound and is one of the most used jungle / dnb basses out there.

Don't know what that first one is, but it ain't jungle and the other 2 are definitely drum and bass. :wink:
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby mulder » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:02 pm

deebom wrote:I do know that if you refer to 'Drum & Bass' as Jungle, a lot of D&B heads get all irate and exclaim "IT'S NOT JUNGLE. IT'S DRUM & BASS!"
:-)


Because a) They probably didn't come into contact with it until post 1996 and b) they're plonkers.

aize wrote:Don't know what that first one is, but it ain't jungle and the other 2 are definitely drum and bass. :wink:


They are all DnB and they are all Jungle, that was the point ;)
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby ian saunders » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:14 pm

Jungle for me is more roughly produced, more sample based in terms of lots of vocal samples, reggae samples, gunshots, rewinds etc etc

DnB is more computerfied lol
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby aize » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:08 pm

mulder wrote:
deebom wrote:I do know that if you refer to 'Drum & Bass' as Jungle, a lot of D&B heads get all irate and exclaim "IT'S NOT JUNGLE. IT'S DRUM & BASS!"
:-)


Because a) They probably didn't come into contact with it until post 1996 and b) they're plonkers.

aize wrote:Don't know what that first one is, but it ain't jungle and the other 2 are definitely drum and bass. :wink:


They are all DnB and they are all Jungle, that was the point ;)

In your opinion, but my point was, that I don't think any of them are actually jungle because none of them have the kind of complicated, varied drum loops which, for me, is the definition of jungle :wink:
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby Traffic Cone » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:42 pm

drum & bass and jungle were maybe the same thing in the mid 90s - d&b being the more respectable term maybe...but that was 15+ years ago. jungle has become a distinct style of it's own. obviously some stuff crosses into both, with the styles being of the same roots...but whilst there are some new jungle tunes that still have many d&b elements, i don't think people like Soundmurderer or the like were really ever d&b. plus jungle's had a scene separate from d&b for years too - such as in the us/canada, and europe...with crossover into breakcore more than d&b. (although i think dubstep's killed a lot of that!)

tbh though, style names are just defined by consensus really...most people now talk about them as separate things, so that makes them so. it's not set in stone after all. and it can change.
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby Restless » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:58 pm

Nah, Jungle and Drum & Bass are two different genres under the same umbrella. Always have been.

Main Room Drum & Bass is so wank these days. Some of the Liquid stuff is amazing (as per), but the Rave stuff is horrid.
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby Traffic Cone » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:02 pm

i dont think its just complicated drum loops. plenty of complex modern d&b, specially at the harder or techier end. but they're all tightly quantised using modern drums ...whereas jungle's more based around old breakbeats and often a bit more loose / funky. thats what i'd say the difference is.

would love to hear some new jungle that wasn't so ragga heavy...i do still love that but jungle that uses other sounds is great, and there isn't enough!
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby Restless » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:22 pm

Yep.

Too much Ragga-based Jungle is just cliched to fcuk.
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Re: First "Jungle" tune debate

Postby dj_gyr8 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:56 pm

Hi,

I really cannot understand how anyone can think JUNGLE and DRUM & BASS are the same.

For starters, I really like Jungle, but I hate Drum & Bass...
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