An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by retrospect » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:58 pm

RonWellsJS wrote: I am 100% self taught... it was always a case of learning on the job, reading the manuals, reading Sound on Sound (and other music production mags) and loads of practice.

After the first few tracks (only had a DJ mixer then) I used eq and effects on each channel (after getting a small but fit for purpose desk) ... I never used compression (I didn't own or even want a compressor).
No excuses for the rest of us then!
RonWellsJS wrote: Techno: Both Derek May and Juan Aktins are documented as being primarily influenced by Kraftwerk (you don't even need them to say it, you can obviously hear it in their work), Electro: so is Afrika Bambaataa (for obvious reasons seeing as Planet Rock is two Kraftwerk tunes copied and glued together).
Derrick & Kevin's biggest influence was Juan. They dont credit him anywhere near enough.

Also, the detroit guys never really acknowledge the influence of the mishmash and assortment of sounds that made up the underground dance music & club scene in the US back in the early 80s, it was undoubtedly the main influence on the sound of techno. While citing funk and early electronic pioneers of the 70s such as kraftwerk, the truth is their major influence was a lot closer to home. It would be like the early 90s hardcore producers not recognising that their sound evolved from the acid house scene of the late 80s. There's a ton of stuff that came out from the tale end of disco and elecro that is extremely techno sounding - larry levan's dub remixes, uk new wave, philly sound works, prelude records, early chicago house productions, all of the the deeper italo tracks etc. And the detroit guys were undoubtedly familiar with this - some even sampled it in some of their productions, but never mention it. They choose to credit artisits that made their name in the 70s like george clinton, giving the impression they took that music and come up with something completely different - that's true but only to a certain extent. Derrick, Juan & Jeff Mills have said before that they used to listen to early 80s dance music shows on the radio & when they were old enough they started going to clubs in chicago - derrick has mentioned in interviews that as a teen he saw Ron Hardy at the music box. In no way is any of that disrespecting detroit artists, they played a major role in my life. I just wished they more openly acknowledged what went immediately before them.

edit: just to clarify, i'm explicitly talking about US club music scene during 1983, 84 & 85. I think of 85 as the year that techno really started with the release of no ufos.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by lien » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:44 pm

Sausage & Egg Mc Muffin or a Bacon & Egg?
Linda Lusardi or Maria Whittaker?

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by Elusive9T2 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:58 pm

lien wrote:Maria Whittaker?
I can't believe she is married to the Rebel MC lol

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by DFTRF5DF » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:05 am

lien wrote:Sausage & Egg Mc Muffin or a Bacon & Egg?
Linda Lusardi or Maria Whittaker?
please don't turn this thread into some below par shite comedy Keith Lemon type crap banter

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by RonWellsJS » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:14 am

retrospect wrote: edit: just to clarify, i'm explicitly talking about US club music scene during 1983, 84 & 85. I think of 85 as the year that techno really started with the release of no ufos.
On Sreetsounds Electro 4 listen to 'Techno City'... for me that is the moment when Juan took Kraftwerk's electro sound into Techno as we now define it. He even uses speak and spell just like on the Computerworld album.

Before when I said Pocket Calculator is light and cheesy, it is 4/4 however.

I don't think anyone will ever be able to convince me that Kraftwerk are not the inventors of both electro and techno... Juan up scaled their sound and made it clubbier and I love him for doing that.

;-)

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by lien » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:21 am

Elusive9T2 wrote:
lien wrote:Maria Whittaker?
I can't believe she is married to the Rebel MC lol
Yeah I know, wonder what she is up too now as you don't see her on TV.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by dial1 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:35 am

RonWellsJS wrote:
dial1 wrote:
What's wrong with prog rock?
It's isn't Techno, that's what's wrong with it... not in context.

If you want to talk prog rock, then Ozric Tentacles are my first choice... they may not be from the 70s, but, for me, they are bewilderingly good and I will never come close to matching such effortless skill ('Waterfall Cities', 'Curious Corn', 'Spirals in Hyperspace', 'Yum Yum Tree' being some of my favourites).
I've had the opportunity of seeing them live. :)

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by dial1 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:40 am

RonWellsJS wrote:"Gottsching pioneered/invented the antecedents of the melodic components of detroit techno as far as I'm concerned".

Techno: Both Derek May and Juan Aktins are documented as being primarily influenced by Kraftwerk (you don't even need them to say it, you can obviously hear it in their work), Electro: so is Afrika Bambaataa (for obvious reasons seeing as Planet Rock is two Kraftwerk tunes copied and glued together).
Sure, but Gottsching and Kraftwerk came from the same German scene. Gottsching was the guitarist for Ash Ra Tempel.

Larry Levan used to play E2-e4 at the paradise garage. Carl Craig and others have sampled and referenced it in interviews.

I don't deny that Kraftwerk were the main pioneers of techno and electro. That much is indisputable. But iif we're talking melodic elements, I think Gottsching's contribution is not worth erasing. Of course, no Kraftwerk, no techno, whilst no gottsching - maybe still techno.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by RonWellsJS » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:44 am

dial1 wrote:
RonWellsJS wrote:
dial1 wrote:
What's wrong with prog rock?
It's isn't Techno, that's what's wrong with it... not in context.

If you want to talk prog rock, then Ozric Tentacles are my first choice... they may not be from the 70s, but, for me, they are bewilderingly good and I will never come close to matching such effortless skill ('Waterfall Cities', 'Curious Corn', 'Spirals in Hyperspace', 'Yum Yum Tree' being some of my favourites).
I've had the opportunity of seeing them live. :)
Excellent... I want to go again soon, will check their tour dates.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by retrospect » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:14 am

RonWellsJS wrote:
retrospect wrote: edit: just to clarify, i'm explicitly talking about US club music scene during 1983, 84 & 85. I think of 85 as the year that techno really started with the release of no ufos.
I don't think anyone will ever be able to convince me that Kraftwerk are not the inventors of both electro and techno... Juan up scaled their sound and made it clubbier and I love him for doing that.

;-)
No doubt, Kraftwerk's music had a huge influence. I'm just saying there's a lot else in their too.

The pre-techno/house scenes of Detroit & Chicago is something i've found really fascinating over the last 15 years, and being English, it's only since having the internet from the mid 90s onward that i've been able to find out where the music of my youth came from. Techno & house developed from American DJs playing an ecclectic mix of synth-pop, new wave, disco and electro. Those things combined gave us something new when young artists who'd heard (or were) those DJs decided to make the music for themselves using cheap drum machines and synths - Juan was one of the first of those kids.

Techno City is a good example. It blends some of the differet influences that juan was hearing at the time. The 4/4 beat of electronic disco, the new-wave / synth pop bass and electro influences (including kraftwerk) can be seen in the vocal & pads. I see it as a continuation of Juan's synth pop influenced Alleys Of Your Mind from 1981. Just like hardcore, techno drew influences from different places.

In a previous post I mentioned the Detroit boys were influenced by what they heard on the radio - a show that derrick & juan have mentioned many times is DJ Elctrifying Mojo's daily show in Detroit on WGPR & WJLB radio stations. The show was a mixture of all different kinds of electronic music - as was the the style of some other US DJs at that time. For an example of early techno influence check the track between 08:30 and 12 minutes in this recording:
https://soundcloud.com/detroitsoundconservancy/mojo-1983-b

Here's a clip of Jeff Mills DJing in 1984, he's playing John Rocca, a popular track in detroit and chicago at the time:



Some other tracks that made up the electronic dance sound of the US DJs in the early 80s:






The point is Techno & House's influences werent down to just one artist, whether that be Gottsching or Kraftwerk.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by ian saunders remix » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:38 am

retrospect wrote:
No doubt, Kraftwerk's music had a huge influence. I'm just saying there's a lot else in their too.

The pre-techno/house scenes of Detroit & Chicago is something i've found really fascinating over the last 15 years, and being English, it's only since having the internet from the mid 90s onward that i've been able to find out where the music of my youth came from. Techno & house developed from American DJs playing an ecclectic mix of synth-pop, new wave, disco and electro. Those things combined gave us something new when young artists who'd heard (or were) those DJs decided to make the music for themselves using cheap drum machines and synths - Juan was one of the first of those kids.

Techno City is a good example. It blends some of the differet influences that juan was hearing at the time. The 4/4 beat of electronic disco, the new-wave / synth pop bass and electro influences (including kraftwerk) can be seen in the vocal & pads. I see it as a continuation of Juan's synth pop influenced Alleys Of Your Mind from 1981. Just like hardcore, techno drew influences from different places.

In a previous post I mentioned the Detroit boys were influenced by what they heard on the radio - a show that derrick & juan have mentioned many times is DJ Elctrifying Mojo's daily show in Detroit on WGPR & WJLB radio stations. The show was a mixture of all different kinds of electronic music - as was the the style of some other US DJs at that time. For an example of early techno influence check the track between 08:30 and 12 minutes in this recording:
https://soundcloud.com/detroitsoundconservancy/mojo-1983-b

Here's a clip of Jeff Mills DJing in 1984, he's playing John Rocca, a popular track in detroit and chicago at the time:



Some other tracks that made up the electronic dance sound of the US DJs in the early 80s:






The point is Techno & House's influences werent down to just one artist, whether that be Gottsching or Kraftwerk.
I'm interested in the same era, if you haven't got it already, try and buy Dan Sicko's book "Techno Rebels". Talks about the start of techno, but has a couple of chapters dedicated to the early 80 Detroit high school party scene. Really interesting time and book.

This was a big influence on them all

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by rage » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:35 am

This is a good read if you are interested in that era, another legendary Ron!

http://www.massivemag.com/national-soun ... -issue-20/

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by stringz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:58 pm

retrospect wrote:
RonWellsJS wrote:
retrospect wrote: edit: just to clarify, i'm explicitly talking about US club music scene during 1983, 84 & 85. I think of 85 as the year that techno really started with the release of no ufos.
I don't think anyone will ever be able to convince me that Kraftwerk are not the inventors of both electro and techno... Juan up scaled their sound and made it clubbier and I love him for doing that.

;-)
No doubt, Kraftwerk's music had a huge influence. I'm just saying there's a lot else in their too.

The pre-techno/house scenes of Detroit & Chicago is something i've found really fascinating over the last 15 years, and being English, it's only since having the internet from the mid 90s onward that i've been able to find out where the music of my youth came from. Techno & house developed from American DJs playing an ecclectic mix of synth-pop, new wave, disco and electro. Those things combined gave us something new when young artists who'd heard (or were) those DJs decided to make the music for themselves using cheap drum machines and synths - Juan was one of the first of those kids.

Techno City is a good example. It blends some of the differet influences that juan was hearing at the time. The 4/4 beat of electronic disco, the new-wave / synth pop bass and electro influences (including kraftwerk) can be seen in the vocal & pads. I see it as a continuation of Juan's synth pop influenced Alleys Of Your Mind from 1981. Just like hardcore, techno drew influences from different places.

In a previous post I mentioned the Detroit boys were influenced by what they heard on the radio - a show that derrick & juan have mentioned many times is DJ Elctrifying Mojo's daily show in Detroit on WGPR & WJLB radio stations. The show was a mixture of all different kinds of electronic music - as was the the style of some other US DJs at that time. For an example of early techno influence check the track between 08:30 and 12 minutes in this recording:
https://soundcloud.com/detroitsoundconservancy/mojo-1983-b

Here's a clip of Jeff Mills DJing in 1984, he's playing John Rocca, a popular track in detroit and chicago at the time:



Some other tracks that made up the electronic dance sound of the US DJs in the early 80s:






The point is Techno & House's influences werent down to just one artist, whether that be Gottsching or Kraftwerk.
It seems like your having an argument with yourself. The Belleville 3 and the 2nd wave always made it clear who their influemces were. It was never just about Kraftwerk, certainly not sonically. I think as much as the sound, Kraftwerks influence on the Detroit guys was about aesthetics and identity (the futurism, facelessness, post-humanism). But they always talked about the importance of Electrifying Mojo and the unique mix of music he introduced them to, the brit post- punk, nu-wave , ebm as well as electro. It is true that the electronic music press always kissed Detroit's ass and bought into the Detroit legend by highlighting Detroit technos uniqueness and originality when really like you say the origins of the sound are very wide.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by stringz » Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:01 pm

And afaik Derrick May and Kms always credited Cybotron as being massively important.

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Re: An answer i had from Jack Smooth..

Post by RonWellsJS » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:07 am

stringz wrote:And afaik Derrick May and Kms always credited Cybotron as being massively important.
Yep, Cybotron is Juan, he is the king of Detroit Techno.

It's worth noting that most of the others listed as influencing Techno were themselves influenced by Kraftwerk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk

See 'Influence on other musicians'.

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